BUYING a watch
Be careful when trading watches
It all started out with me wanting to sell / trade my 1665 - received many interest, and talked and sms with a person that "looked" like he know what he was talking about (maybe a little trick question would have exposed him), so after a week of talk and sms, I was to meet him.
As I was not 100% sure of the deal, I went with a dummy bag (containing some straps and a plastic "rolex"), and keept the real deal in my car.
Was at the address awaiting him to open the door, when out of the dark, a person with hood and something to conceal his face came running toward me - yelling "Give me the watch, give me the watch", and at the same time flashing a big knife towards me. I gave him the dummy bag and stared running to my car.
Drove home and said to myself - yes all the alarms was blinking, but I went into the trap. I did not bring the watch, but that could have been a bad situation. Me against a guy with a knife.
That is crazy that a 1665 can cause this action - what can a 1665 be sold for when it is hot!!!
So all I can say is be careful out their.
We are people loving watches - and one bad episode should not stop me from making new meetings with others "unknown" WIS people we meet through the net.
So just be careful, and be safe.
Be VERY carefully out there - vintage watches so easy to fake.
When I check what you can buy and make a simple rolex into a very high prized watch with a new dial - we are in the zone where any one out for a quick buck - can buy a standard rolex, buy for some few dollars a new dial and maybe even a new case-back - and presto you have a different watch - that i major parts are all original, but the parts that really matters (for the price) is fake.
And the ONLY reason I can see people going this way - is to fool people to pay premium for a watch that is not what it pretends to be.
Who would change a watch back with a different one - just for fun?
Who would change dials to a not original one - but unoriginal with "vintage print"
In general - why change the look of a watch - to look "older"/ more rare?
So I'm just saying - be very careful about the semi-rare watches out on the Internet for sale. I would rather pay 10-20% extra for a watch and buy from a well known seller, than taking a risk.
That said - there have been more than one occasion where known auctions houses have been known to sell less than correct watches - so even this is no guarantee for a verified watch.
And probably I would rather have a not so rare watch and enjoy it - than taking a chance.
I can see a future where these special watches can only be sold through high end second hand watch dealers.
Small GTG and How to compensate for deal gone bad ;-)
But how do you compensate for something like this - a deal not going your way - well for me - a close friend jumped to the rescue with some special watches for me.
These watches have never been on my radar - but anyway somehow they have if you read my Next watch list and the watches that are my dream watches.
But the price is second to none - and the best part is that these watches are FUN!!!
Anyway - my new 3 friends are 1 x Hamilton and 2 x CWC.
More photos to come - this was just some quick and dirty from the mini GTG in the evening sun.
The story behind these watches is that these are UK Mil watches - with all the correct back-case inscriptions.
The Hamilton is very nice, and the two CWC will be a happy watch on any wrist, as a daily watch.
Fixed bars, so new straps are ordered as my 20mm straps are to big - these watches use 18mm.
Crazy story from the real life
My dreamwatch is lost for now.
My Panerai 1B + cash that was payment for this watch is still at the dealer. Now we have to find a solution for this - but it hurts ;-)
This will happen and all I can say is that the dealer is welknown and the reason for the deal not going through is that the other party backs down on his part and want some more money.
Still bad luck for me - but now the hunt is for the next best solution.
Either get another watch from the dealer, or have money and Pam 1B returned - so I can look around some more.
The dealer have a nice 5513 meters first - (just not with a fat inlay) - that could be a option.
But it will never be the same.
The story so far:
- Contacted dealer becasue of the nice 5513 meters first model.
- I said I was on the lookout for a 1655
- Dealer said he had a EXP II 1655 on hand - and if I was interesstet could buy it - but with no return policy, as is, etc..
- Some mails and photos back and back again - I decided to make the jump....
- I send money to dealer - depositum - would be lost if I did'nt want the watch!
- Dealer recived the money and will now contact seller
- I ship my Panerai 1B to dealer also as part of payment
- Dealer recives my Pam 1B, and all should be i working order.
- I go on weekend - and wait
- Dealer send email - seller has backed down, and the watch is not avaliable any more
- Some mails later - I ask what the reason was - seller wanted some more money. And Dealer did'nt want to pay as deal was a deal.
- Mail again - I said - "if only minor money - then OK, or direct him to me"
- But Dealer didn't want that - unprofessional work if he went back and ask the seller this...
- What to do NEXT - dealer offer to to send watch and money back - but I have already said goodbuy to the Pam 1B.
- Dealers 5513 has been sold - but buyer can't pay - so I'm offered the initial deal with the 5513 meters frist watch.
- But should I go that way ??
This is my story so far - all the waiting time is now over for the 1655 - and I'm on they way to find what I want to do next time.
What to buy and what to Sell - how many is enough?
Do you collect watches just to keep the number growing, or do you have a number of watches that you own, that is kept almost constant (one in = one out).
And is the collection of a kind where the number is status quo or the number might even decline - but the total price of you collection raises.
I think I'm in the last category - my idea is to have more or less the same amount of watches, and in time less watches - but try to consolidate the collection to the main watches..
- E.g. I could live with one millsub (to replace my 1680, 5513, 1665)
- I will always keep my 16550 - my first Rolex and with a story
- I could part with my Panerais and Linde Werdelin to support a rolex gold sub
And in time I should be able to live with JUST 2-3 watches.
- One Gold watch (either day date or gold sub)
- Super classic but "expensive" WIS watch (PP Nautilus (maybe not - have not seen one in person), Rolex millsub (5513/5517), ..)
- The ones NEVER to go - Rolex 16550 and .....
Box and papers - Why/why not.
But in the last months the talk of the town has been the "value" of papers and the raising of fake/blank papers. This means that unless very confident that papers are original, don't pay that much extra for papers.
Based on the number one forum on vintage Rolex, vintagerolexforum.com it is now the rule NOT to pay premium on papers. Why this change of mind. Well it is all relayed to the price that vintage Rolex with papers commend.
A Rolex explorer 1655 with papers is between 5k-10k higher than one without. Same with a sea-dweller 1665, the complete set is again 5k higher. This means there are much money to be gained by adding a box and papers to a clean watch.
The latest big talk about papers on vintagerolexforum have shown both how good the fakers are - and that papers is NOT always as original as described.
When people are saying Box and papers - it don't have to mean that box and papers are original from the watch - just that box and papers are included. So beware.
A box can easy be found on the net - and if included with a watch - that's a box (don't have to be the original watch box - just a box from (if lucky) same period.
Next there is the papers - they can also be found on the net - and if the papers are original (but again not the original papers that went with the watch) there are still original.
Some info on this topic is seen here...
How many *punched* but *blank* papers have you come across?
4x5 4x6 ??? Punched papers...
FAKE case experience with 5512 PCG
Dude, speaking of papers…IS THIS your listing? BEEVER?
here are some punched loose real papers I bought in 1999
"Original date stamped" forgeries are also coming...
According to you, one of them has NO paper
a lot of unnecessary attention
A warning about added papers
The number of cases where there is doubts about the papers are beginning to br seen more often. So all I can say from my point of view is - be very open minded when it comes paying premium for papers. Papers and box are nice but are not essential for a vintage Rolex watch. For all other watches I would focus on getting the complete set, but for old vintage Rolex, I would not pay premium.
Danish watch seller - First Watch - good idea
But somehow my taste is a "little" to expensive compared to what a first "real" watch can cost.
When your on the lookout for watches in the Rolex, Panerai, iwc and others your have made up your own mind that this is watch must cost and that is OK. But when your starting out on this watch quest - you tend to start with good brand - but not up in the expensive to very expensive level.
My first watch before my first Rolex - was a Heuer - and I still wanted a Rolex - but the price was just to high compared to what I would spend (I did NOT have that kind of money).
That is why I like this new watch-shop on the net - you give people the right options - be able to checkout the medium to high (price) end of watches.
And leave the high end (price) to the people that have the knowledge and don't have to ask "a friend" which Rolex to buy - buy what you like - not what other people tell you to buy.
Check out the page for "Entry watches here" or as they say firstwatch and the more "high-end watch here" or as they say dreamwatch
Watches as a Hobby/Passion/Interest - How long does it last?
If it goes like all other "hobbies" - one will go through different stages.
- Stage 1: Interest awaking
- Stage 2: Slowly starting to collect information and "watches"
- Stage 3: Hooked - no going back - becoming a WIS - searching for information, looking for new watches, visit to forums daily, discussion on the net, etc.,...
- Stage 4: Slow down - The interest is still there - but is now a slow burning flame - You still have your watches - but don't buy any new one.
- Stage 5: Recleine - no major interest in watches - slowly starting to sell out your watches - you only wear one watch - you begin to have other areas of focus - food, wine, family, other interests, etc...
- Stage 6: End of Life - You no longer a WIS - any new rolex, panerai, AP, IWC model will not get any attention from your side. You have "moved" on to the "normal" life ;-)
There could be many more stages, but this is the 6 stages of becoming a WIS and ending being a WIS.
The time spend in each stage, and the time spend in transition between one stage and the other can be any number of months or years.
Right now I'm in stage 3 - but could see me moving into stage 4 within the next decade.
I know that many of you that read this, is in stage 1,2 or 3 - and less in stage 4+.
But my question is - when will we come into stage 5 and 6 - and if any of you have been through the process, and have come through to the "other" side - stage 5 and 6.
And if you "don't" know what stage your in let me explain:
- Stage 1: You have a interest in "high" end watches - maybe looking at Rolex - You have a watch - probably a semi-high-end watch.
- Stage 2: You are now sure that you want a new watch - and have your mind set on a more high-end watch - Omega, Rolex, Panerai, .... You notice people on the news - what watch are they wearing, checking out watches on the TV and in the Movies.
- Stage 3: You now have a least two watches - know what a WIS is, know the most known watch forums, when on the Internet you make searches on different watch brands. By now you know all "watch" movies - what movie Panerai is seen in, What a EOD watch is, etc... You take turns in wearing your watches, you "take" photos of them, you are a "active" person on different forums.
- Stage 4: You have you "collection" of watches, but you mainly only wear 1-2 different watches - not any bling bling, just good quality watches that have grown on you. You don't check forums that much, and you almost NEVER post on forums. You don't plan to buy any new watches at all - your content.
- Stage 5: You start to sell some of your watches - you plan to keep only one or two. You find that being a WIS and having watches as a hobby is a thing of the past. You only wear one watch daily and the size is not above 42 mm - it is a watch that goes with everything.
- Stage 6: Continue of stage 5 - but now you back to a normal life - you might even select NOT to wear a watch!
And as you can see I'm still in phase 4 - still making photos of watches in funny situations, still looking for new watches, and I have a "blog" on watches - how much more WIS can I get. But I have a ongoing "talk" - can I justify this "hobby", do I really need one more watch or ...
So far I will still be in stage 4 - but I could see myself move into stage 5 and 6 within the next 5-10 years. How about you.
How long have you been a WIS - lets make a POLL - Results will follow shortly.
I'm not a watch collector - I'm a watch owner.
Some of the latest post display rolex models on very rare rolex sub models (eg. 5510) where the price is above 50k US$.
Than made me think twice again on my next watch buy and what watch I would buy.
Well I can now feel in my bones that I will ONLY buy a watch I would wear daily. I'm not very into "safe queens", and buying a old vintage watch for plus 50k US$.
On the next level I will only buy a watch I like the look of - I would newer buy a watch that I don't like, but just becasue it is "rare".
That is why I see my self much more as a watch owner, and less a watch collector.
I have the deepest respect for people collecting watches, owning the most perfect watch - NOS - and with all the B&P.
And also having all the sub models, or all versions of e.g. the rolex sub model 5513, etc...
That is why I like all my watches and will try to add a new one - but still unclear which model......
Best Buy for the money - Buy Used and Buy quality
Then I get into my talk about buying used and buying quality.
It is possible to find some very good deals on high quality watches, to a very fair price. Often less than the price of a new lesser known brand.
Just check these watches out - they are almost pristine - and for the price - I would say it is a sure investment as well. This also means that it would be easy to "sell" these watches again if you regret the buy.
I would not thing twice in getting a watch like this for anyone asking for advice. These Rolex dates, are still so classy, so clean, so "I don't know what", I want one.
Which watch to recommend to a non-WIS friend?
They mostly say - "they like rolex - but think it is to expensive..." - so what would I recommend?
Well I have started to look back to the time when I started to look into getting my first expensive watch, my Heuer Diver 200 quartz - which I was so happy with for many many years until I got my first Rolex.
I could have used some guidance back then when selecting my first real "expensive" watch, I was lucky that I made a correct selection (well I still think that it is one nice watch ;-)).
But when I see how many watches out there that are relative expensive, but watches I would NOT guess will survive 5-6 years daily use and abuse.
So my recommendations to my Non-WIS friends are:
- Known watch brand - by this I mean - don't select a fashion brand.
- Quartz watches are very OK - less to maintain
- Go for a classic look - again don't be a victim of fashion
- If possible - go for a used "know" brand - Omega, Seiko, ...
- If possible - go for a used "high end" brand
Which watch is the "most" ultimate watch for a old WIS?
Somehow I think I will continue to find watches fascinating and keep my little collection in place and replace my daily watch from time to time...
But what will be my daily watch when I'm +60 years old and maybe focus more on my family, reading, relaxing, travel or what I will have time for when that time comes in many years from now.
This is what I mean by the "most" ultimate watch for a WIS
Somehow I think my ultimate watch will be a rolex, either back to basic - my first rolex - the rolex Explorer II (16550)- it remains a classic and will look good in any outfit.
If money was not a option I could find my self getting the Patek Nautilus - classic watch - high end watch, classy, and one heck of a nice watch.
So even if I'm trying out many different watches as it is now, and HOPE I will continue to be a WIS, that can see the fascination and beauty of the watches.
Only time will tell - and it is not now or for the next couple of years ;-)
Check out this watch auction - some nice watches ..
The difference between a "watch collector" and "watch owner".
How do I see the difference between myself as a watch owner and a watch collector.
I see my self as a watch owner as I would never own a watch that I would not wear - I would not buy a watch I did not think is VERY nice and something that I would wear any time any day.
A watch collector as I see it would also buy a watch if it had a place in a collection - even if the watch is not to be used.
Watch collectors can have watches with box and papers that would never been used.
I would not buy a watch - and have it sit in a box not to be used.
I do have some watches that see more wrist time than others - but I don't baby any of my watches.
And if I by some happy way got my hands on a Rolex Comex, Milsub, Omega Speedmaster (cal 321), Rolex 1680 red, Rolex DRSD, or any other watch that is out of my league.
I would always wear and use these watches - daily and in all kind of situations.
My panerais and vintage rolex - get daily abuse and they do get some dings and scratches from time to time - but hay that is a price I'm will pay in order to have these nice watches on my wrist daily.
What to buy when going vintage - the watch or the story?
What are your focus - is it a prestine vintage watch or is it a vintage watch with a story.
There is many steps in between - but I'm more into the watch with a story kind of watch than the NOS kind of vintage watch.
Lately I have seen some nice exaplmes of COMEX and Milsubs (Rolex) that is so nice looking that I can't understand that they have been used in real life (without a major overhaul).
So my question is - what kind of watch do you want to have in your collection - based on my rating scale.
Vintage Rating scale:
- A grade: NOS vintage watch with all B&P (Box and Papers)
- B grade: NOS vintage watch with No B&P
- C grade: Used but very good vintage watch with all B&P (Box and Papers)
- D grade: Used but very good vintage watch with No B&P
- E grade: Very Used vintage watch with all B&P (Box and Papers)
- F grade: Very Used vintage watch with No B&P (Box and Papers)
- X grade: ... you can fill in your own description....
The problem with this scale is that it only have focus on the watch and the way it looks.
Nothing of this will have focus on the history of the watch - and for me that is something find very interesting - probally more than the look of the watch.
So if you had to select between two watches - which one would you get.
Watch no. 1: Very used and beat up watch - but with a history
Watch no. 2: Same watch - NOS with all the papers
I would like a Rolex Milsub that is beat up - and with ding and dongs from its active life.
If the Milsub then came with a letter from the owner, and a history of the watch life in the "fast lane" - I would be a happy man.
I would like a watch with history better than a NOS watch - then it is only a watch in a limited series.
Same for a COMEX watch - I would prefere a watch with a dive log, much better than a desk watch without any "history" - It might look nice - but it lack the history.
How do you select wich watch to get?
NOS or HISTORY
When "inexpensive" watches can be OK - Yes why not.
Well I can understand their viewpoint and for my wife - she can't understand anything - she see watches as a accessory. She looks at watches more in the line of fashion and could easily think of buying watches just because they match some shoes!!!
I was directed to shopNBC.com by a thread on timezone.com - where the focus was on the Fav. quote from ShopNBC ... - so I checked it out - and my wife like it ;-)
So many watches to a "good" price.
And I have been checking out the INVICTA watches - I could remember this brand from when I was looking for my rolex - I could have a INVICTA "rolex" - but decided in the end against it back then.
But they do have some nice fashion watches - well why not be "fresh" and try some bling bling when going to a party.
I even found this nice watch case to a OK price - I'm more to "pelican" cases than a "woodbox" for my watches.
I can respect "inexpensive" watches like these - but can NEVER accept fakes or replica watches.
Check these fashion watches :
Which watch to let go?
And we all know the answer to this ;-) - Buy what you like NOT what your friend or anyone else say.
But this has also made me think - from my little collection I have been demanding on myself to list ALL my watches in the order I would have to let them go if I ever came into that situation.
First of all - ALL my watches are "daily" watches - no safe queens here.
I will not keep any watch I can't wear I will slowly start thinking of letting that watch go to a better home.
That did happen to my Panerai 4B (the PVD model) - I was starting to wearing it less and less, resulting in my selling it to another WIS that did not have my dilemma ;-)
But which ONE of your present collection of watches - would you let go first ?
My list look like this - order by let go first at the TOP.
- Panerai 1B
- Panerai 25C
- Rolex dweller 16600
- Rolex sub 1680
- Rolex sub 16610LV
- Rolex sub 5513
- Rolex gmt 1675
- Rolex dweller 1665
- Rolex Exp II 16550
- Heure quartz 200 meters professional
Well I hope I will not have to let any of these go - I enjoy them all on a weekly basis ;-)
Now lets see your "ordering" of your present collection - which one would you let go first !!
Added new super watch site to my links section.
Bas is well respected and I hope all will work out well for him.
It is not only watches he sell - but he can also help with watch repair if that is needed.
I would love some of these watches....:
What is a fair amount to spend on a watch?
This is very difficult to answer - I think their exist a fine line between interest,passion and "to much".
We all know that the difference between a man and a boy is the price of their toys.
So spending money on a car, boat, exotic travel, diving, climbing or stamps can easily be just as expensive as a watch.
But even me as a person interested in watches their is a line - where I can start thinking "what was he thinking - that is just to much!".
But as long as their is passion in the person collecting watches - and the watches are not seen as trophy's I'm almost OK.
Here is my list of people collection watches and what I think of them ;-)
- Watches with stones, brilliants, diamonds, etc - To much - Show of - No respect - They must have the money from somewhere not legal ;-)
- Expensive watches - Gold - Can be OK - some watches of gold is less expensive than some steel models
- Platinum watches - I have mixed feelings - somehow I can't understand this. Platinum is like steel - but more expensive than gold...
- Limited editions on expensive watches - again don't really think to well about this
- Vintage watches - people are buying these for their interest - not to show off
- Expensive modern watches - if classic that OK - can show a knowledge of watches
- Less expensive watches - but special design - buying these for the interest in watches - and not for the price
- Cheap watches - no interest in watches - don't care - paying more than XX for a watch is stupid
Added one more internet watch shop
I now have one more watch shop I have to visit once to twice a week just to check out all the nice watches.
Now my only problem is saving up to my next watch.
I can recommend only recommend you to visit "Kroon Watches" where I have had a good and professional talks with Marco from Kroon Watches.
I can only dream of many of the watches they have e.g.
- Royal Oak Jumbo
- Submariner no date
- GMT Master II Ceramic
- Deepsea Seadweller
- Deepsea Seadweller
They also have special watches - maybe not for me - but it's nice to see them as a WIS.
Buying a watch over the net - my recommendations
You might find a deal that is either "to good" or just "good". But remember there is NEVER anything as a "too good" deal.
The saying that has been around for many years in the watch community is "Buy the Seller" has never been more true.
The situation is now so bad (the replicas are so good) that I would think more than twice when buying over the net.
- Ebay is a sure NO GO.
- Unknown persons on the net that have something to offer is probably also a NO GO.
- Buying from a known person over the net is OK.
- Buying from known web watch shop is even more OK.
I would probably even recommend buying from a know web watch shop as they would fell obliged to be very sure of the originality and any bad buy from these would spell big problems as the watch community for "vintage" and expensive watches are well connected.
As my blog is ONLY for fun - a hobby for me - I would never have any sponsors here that are not "top-dollar" in respect to service, selections, and personal involvement.
I have rejected many many watch shops on the net that would like to "sponsor" my site - but I have rejected them after doing some quick checkups.
So I only have sponsors I can recommend - not "easy" money sponsors here ;-) .
Be afraid - be very afraid - Replicas exist and there are very Good
A bad made replica is easy to spot - but the very good fakes are started to show up.
And these fakes can easily be seen as originals - even by people that are known to know their watches.
There exist forums on the net that can point you towards the very good fakes - they call them replicas - but there are Fakes and have nothing to do with the real thing.
And when your on the net searching for eg. rolex - the results would in many cases be 50/50 between links to websites that sell these fakes/replicas and "real" links.
Some forums are deep into the replica talk - having both rolex, panerai and breitling replicas as their watches.
These "kind" of people are not "dangerous" but they do give money to the factory's to produce even more and better replicas.
And with these better replicas there is not a long way to the less honestly people trying to make a "quick" win on selling replicas and the real thing = FAKES.
And there could even be part of the replicas used in original watches - here the dials and hands are the main issue - add a red sub dial tom a white sub, ad a T-dial to a panerai 1,2,4 (L-dial) watch - easy to do - difficult to prove.
So be careful my friend in the world of expensive watches - you can get burned - and there is no need for this - so be careful.
Buying vintage or not - that is the question
And many watch collecting people will never move into the vintage range but keep focus on modern watches.
I for one did not start looking at vintage until after my 3 modern Rolex (16550, 16600, 16610LV) and my focus on vintage was not that "easy". My main reason for getting a vintage Rolex - was to find one from my birth year, as I thought it could be kind of cool to have a watch from the same year as I was born.
I kept looking at different vintage models - but was not feeling ready.
But after I got my first vintage Rolex, my 5513 (and not from my birth year - I'm still looking), I simple got the vintage "bug".
It is not easy to explain the fascination of eg. vintage rolex watches - but it has something to do with the "quality" and "DNA" of these watches.
And it has nothing to do with quality - I do think that the quality of the modern Rolex are much better than the older Rolex'es and this is probably also the case for all other brands.
This means that if I could only have one watch - It would probably be a modern watch (Rolex).
So I can understand all out there that don't really get the idea of having vintage (old) watches as part of collecting, but all I can say is that if you have the option - try buying one vintage watch - you might get the same bug as me ;-)
Here are my first 3 modern Rolex's - before I got my first vintage rolex 5513
Rolex Explorer II (16550), Rolex Sea Dweller (16600) , Rolex Sub LV (16610LV)
Here my vintage Rolex collection:
Rolex Non-date Sub (5513), Rolex Sea Dweller (1665), Rolex Gmt (1675) and Rolex Sub (1680)
When buying used - Should it be with Box and Papers or Not?
Yes to what - But again it depends a little on the situation and what watch I'm looking for.
But in general Box and Paper (B&P) is a must for anyone collecting watches. As a "normal" person the box and paper can feel a little to much.
But my guidelines for buying used is simple - And I like to keep it simple ;-).
- 1) Always Buy complete - Get everything - Watch, Original receipt, Outer box, Box, Paper, etc - Get ALL! - Premium price
- 1) Buy complete as possible - At least Watch, Box and Papers - "Normal" Price - This is the normal state of watch buy and sell.All depends on the watch / and age
- 1) Buy Semi complete - Watch and Papers - Papers are more important that Box - "Normal" price - All depends on the watch/and age
- 1) Buy watch and service papers - But in perfect condition - Normal price - All depends on brand, age and how pristine the watch is.
- 1) Buy watch only - But in perfect condition - Normal price - All depends on brand, age and how pristine the watch is.
- 1) Buy watch only - Normal wear on watch - but nothing else - expect to pay "Lower" price - again it all depends on the watch/and age
But I would normally say that I would buy a simple watch for daily use - without anything if the price reflected this - but on the other hand I would much rather but a watch with box and papers - it will make resell, value etc much higher on the watch.
That said I have some watches where I only have the watch and not papers or box, and some I have watch and box but no papers.
But in general I love watches - And if I find a nice one to a good deal I will get it - I like watches to much to have a missing box or paper stop me ;-).
Complete packages - Box and Papers:
NOT Complete packages:
New Place for Super watches added to my weekly checklist
Well so fra I have 3-4 webshops I do check out on a weekly if not daily basis - for information and just for fun - to see if my next dream watch is somewhere out there.!!!
This time it is the www.steinermaastricht.nl that has come to my attention.
Checkout some of these "clocks" - including my grail watch - the Rolex MILSUB!!!
TCO - Total cost of ownership on watches
Ok - this might not be completely true if all watch brands are allowed. Very difficult to say anything negative on a Casio G-shock watch for less the what a simple checkup would cost at a local watchmaker.
But for many of the more expensive watches, the price paid for the name - like Rolex, Panerai, AP, PP and others are well paid and will probably be a "good" deal for one in the last end.
I got my First Rolex Explorer II (16550) in 1985 at a price about 27% of price today.
I will be able to sell it used for about 230% of initial price paid
It has had two services in total of 20-25% of original price.
I have had the watch for +23 years and it will not leave me - quality never goes out of style.
And one additional thing. I have not looked at any other watch during my first 20 years with my trusty Exp II.
So how much has this watches cost me - if I sell it now - what has the TCO been?
I have earned money on the watch (almost)! - I can sell it for 2-2,5 times the original price - an with deducting the original price and service cost I still stand to "earn" about 100-150% of original price.
This does not include inflation - but even with inflation - I guess I'm better than break even.
This is even more true for my "vintage" Rolex and to some extent my Pams.
- My Rolex 1665 - I have had for 3 years and the price is about 140% the price I paid (conservative estimate) .
- My Rolex 5513 - which I have had for 4 years is now about 150-180% the price I paid..
- My Rolex 1680 - which I have had for 3-4 years is now about 100-120% the price I paid..
- My Rolex 16610LV - which I have had for 6 years is now only about 75% of original price - but give time it will break even ....
Only issue is having the money to start with - but that is why I have a wishlist and save up.
I would say that this is also true to some extent some of the other brands and special watches. I could see older Panerais and Omega will see the same trend.
So All I can say to people thinking that some watches are very expensive is "think twice - cut once" - maybe the TCO is better than you might think.
I know this is all very theoretically - and I can only say again - BUY the watch you want - don't buy for investment - buy what you like.
Buy New or Buy used - that is the question?
My feeling is:
1) Nothing beats the feeling of buying a brand new watch and bring it home.
2) Buying used can save you some money and only option if buying vintage.
3) Buying a "new" watch used - can save some money - but be careful if you don't know the seller,etc.
For me I would love to buy all my "new" watches direct from the dealer - the extra money spend is not that bad, and forgotten quickly.
But on the other hand I don't mind buying used - and even don't mind the watch looks used - as all my watches are worn and used very much and they will get scratches and dings.
As I said before - No safe queens for me.
But Everybody should buy at lest one watch directly from a official dealer and enjoy the nice feeling of bringing home the box.
And at the same time don't feel bad of buying a used watch - even with scratches on if you can save some money and enjoy the feeling of having saved some money and maybe save for the next watch.
Some of my Watches brought directly from the dealer (my Rolex 16550 and Rolex 16610LV)
What should I get a Rolex or a Panerai - A question I get a lot
Well easy question - Get the Rolex ;-)
If life just was that easy - it would be a boring life as well. I can only stress that you should buy what you want and not buy what other people say you should buy.
Take control over your life and make your own decision.
That is to put it on the point - It can some times be nice to hear pro and cons for different watches that are on ones which list.
Most often I hear about the pro and cons for a Panerai or a Rolex. And I don't think anyone have anything "negative" to say about these two watches - there are both good watches and easy to sell again if you regret it and want to try another watch.
But if you ask me for my opinion - I would say get the Rolex.
The Rolex is and will always be a classic, its tough, its accurate, in-house movement, its quality, it is good good quality for the money, it looks good, and its easy to sell again and people will know you like quality. A sure buy.
The Rolex is also a little to easy to select. Like the old saying nobody get fired for buying IBM (from the good old days).
The Panerai is more "Fun" - it has some other qualities that is unique to that Brand.
The quality is not as good as Rolex, it is high priced for the "ETA" models, the in-house models is even higher priced, many special editions, the community is special, the secondhand price for the limited models are high. But the watch is more FUN!!
The difference between Panerai and Rolex is like buying cars.
The ROLEX is a Volvo, Audi, Mercedes, Saab, etc - high price and high quality. You will get value for money even if the price is high.
The PANERAI is a Alfa, a Fiat 500, a Morgan, a Lotus Super Seven, a Defender (Land Rover) - High price - but fun cars you can enjoy at a different level.
So if you have the opportunity to have have two cars - etc. like one for you to have fun with and one for the daily work of driving the kids to school, etc. That is optimal.
Hope this has helped you a little in the difficult task of selecting a watch - being it a Rolex, Panerai, or any other watch.
Plan to make a nest egg for buying the next watch
I plan to make a allocated account for my next watch buy - the so called nest egg - that will allow me to focus on adding a little money on a monthly basis. SO far it is limited what is in the next egg - but that just mean that is will take longer to get the next watch - which is OK. I still enjoy the watches I have - and can still dream on and change my decision many times before I will have the opportunity to and the next watch.
What I check when doing watch buys long distance.
- My Rolex Explorer II and Rolex Sub LV was brought new directly from AD
- My Rolex 5513 was brought from watch shop here in DK
- My Rolex 1675 was brought from watch shop here in DK
- My Rolex 16600 was brought from private person in DK over mail and bank transfer
- My Rolex 1665 was brought from auction house here in DK over the NET
- My Rolex 1680 was brought from private person here in DK face to face
- My Panerai 4B was brought from private person in italy over mail and bank transfer
- My Panerai 25C was brought from private person in DK over mail and bank transfere
- My Panerai 1B brought from watch shop here in EU over mail and bank transfer
I have a simple list of checks I do before I jump to the buy.
- Make sure the watch your are looking at is the watch you would like - don't get a 1675 if it really was a 5513 your wanted
- Buy what you really want
- Check the watch - first by photos, if possible in person, is the watch as it should be - especially for vintage Rolex this is important
- Is the watch complete - if not does it reflect the price and does it matter to your
- How "used" is the watch - does it need a service - when was the last time it had a service, and do papers exists on this
- If this is the watch you want move on to the buy
- If local - meet face to face at cafe for hand on view and get a feeling of the seller
- If local - and you what the watch make money transfer and watch switchover at your home
- If local - and you what the watch make money transfer and watch switchover at local bank
- If not local - get to "know" the seller - many will be know on watch forums and they can give references
- Buy the seller
- Buy the seller - if in doubt - drop the deal.
- If the seller is serious they are aware of the issues and will gladly help in making the transfer in a good way for both
- If buying from watch shop on the next - make a check on forums and search the net for any information on that business
- I prefer to do business inside EU to have no issues with Tax and VAT when receiving the packet
- I would probably stay away from anyone sending fuzzy photos, general having little knowledge of the watch, or being to active
- If the seller says - "I have many other buyers on hand" - I would probably stay away - maybe not - it all depends on the deal
- Be careful and think the buy through - any thing that don't match, seller email, seller IP and seller adress (more it knowledge needed)....
Collecting watches and Safe Queens
I'm a little split on collecting watches and having safe queens. A safe queen is seen as a watch that is brought buy a collector only to sit in a "safe" - never to be "used".
Somehow that don't do it for me - any watch I have is to be used, and I don't care that much that the watch get a scratch or ding, as this is the normal life of a watch.
Of-cause it "hurts a little" when I bang my watch into a door frame - and you look down to see that chip of paint on the watch.
But hey that is life and a watch is to be used and be with you all the time.
Your watch should be part of your life and not seen as a delicate juverly only to be worn to "showoff". This is not for me.
And when people starts baby their Tool watches - that is somehow not correct ;-)
When I start to think twice before wearing any of my watches I start to think twice on selling it.
That is what I did to my Pam 4B - I began to think twice on wearing it as I was concerned about the PVD on that watch.
I sold it but have since regretted it - but hey that is life.
So NO safe queens for me - how about you ;-)
Buy WHAT up want - don't settle for second best
I know it is hard to say this but through times I have learned one thing and that is to get what you really want - if you don't do it, then you will forever think about the watch or other thing you really wanted.
It has been true for me both in my days as photographer, watch "freak" , and in general daily situations where your have to select between multiple things and different prices.
If you want a Panerai - get a Panerai !!
If you want a Rolex - get a Rolex - don't get a copy - you will forever still think about the rolex watch.
If you want a Rolex - but can't justify the price, then try the options, buy used, buy a different model, etc.
Buy what you REALLY want - you will not regret it.
You will regret it every day - if you don't BUY what you want.
Found new site with some good deals in Rolex and Panerai
How about a limited edition Panerai Pam 76 or my all time favorite the Pam 000.
But the fun starts with the Rolex vintage up for sale.
I would like to win the lottery and add some of these to my collection.
A "origial" Milgauss or Rolex Sub 6536 (James Bond) or just a nice 5513.
I have not dealt with them personal yet - but their selection of nice watches have me add their site to the ones I check out weekly for nice watches.
Why Box and Papers are important
As you all know some watches are very expensive will some are less expensive.
This is one area where the frankenwatch come in. There is seen many watches like Rolex 1655 made of parts from a Rolex GMT, etc. But if you have the papers for the watch you can see if the serial matches the watch in question.
For Panerai the is a big difference between the PVD 4B and a normal Pam 1B in price. The PVD model would cost about 3-4 times more than the Pam 1B model.
What is then the problem you ask. Well buy a Panerai 1B - get it PVD treated and sell it as a Panerai 4B for a big premium.
So DON'T buy a Panerai PVD model without box and Papers (movement sticker).
The problem here is that the Panerai models 4B and 1B are the "same" family. See below of the pictures of my sold Panerai 4B and my new Pam 1B.
You should always check the "movement" sticker of a Panerai - there you can match the serial to the model.
You could probably get Panerai to verify the model - and that could be a solution - but again I would not put my head on the block for that.
The movement stickers - the proff of the model:
And the case back of the Panerai 4B - nothing to tell the which model:
And some pictures of these two wathces in same family.
Added another good website to look for good deals
I have added the following website www.lex-watches.com that have been recommended by another watch friend. Sometimes it is diffecult to deal over the internet with people or websites around the world - sending money before "they" will send the watch.
And be aware - there are comming more and more scammers out there, and they are getting better - giving false reference etc. so please be aware.
So I can ONLY stress again - "Buy the seller" - Every time I have dealt with private persons I didn't know - I have asked myself during the waiting period - will I recive the watch - It can stess you a little ;-)
Here I can say trade with confidence. They have both used and new watches avaliable.
Check it out www.lex-watches.com they have watches that would be nice in any collection and they will help and answer any questions. And they have become a sponser on my blog - so thank you.
Which watch to buy if seen as "investment"
But if your looking for a watch that will not be less worth in lets say 5 years from now then what should you buy.
The following is suggestions and based on my limited knowledge.
This is just the watches I would get - and that I belive will keep/increase in price over time.
Get some of the plexiglas watches - if it is possible to get with box and paper then even get the discontinued models.
- I would try to get my hands on GMT 1675 - they are still relative priced.
- Then any 5513 I would get, mat dials first, gloss dial second.
- Transition models like 16800, and 16660 are becomming of high interest of collectors.
- But in general I would check out any Rolex with mat dials.
Here I would not focus on series A, B and C. These can still be found for relative fair prices. The A serice might not be so easy to get hold on. I can say that a A series Sub was priced at 2600 euro for about one year ago. And today it is 6900 Euro! So the prices on Panerai have so far only headed one way....
- Get the basic models (models 001 and 002) in serie B and C (A is out of reach).
- Get the limited editions subs (model 64, etc) - but make sure it is T-dial.
- Only the "original" Speedmasters from around 1960-1975
But again get the watches you want not the watches you think will be good investments. But if you can combine the two - then why not do it.
Found a good site with my dream watches - now I just need the money
I found the following website www.watches.de that has all the watches I like - EOD, Vintage Panerai , including many Pre-A, Some semi vintage Rolex, etc.
Probally not for the normal Watch buyer - but for WIS - that is a nice collection. And the owner of the site has been a long standing "good person". So I would say trade with confidence.
Check it out www.watches.de they do have some lovly watches.
Watches as investment - yes or no
Many times I'm asked which watch should I buy if I want to ensure that I don't
loose any money - or which watch is the "best investment". I have always said - but
the watch that you like - nobody can give any answer to these questions.
But as time goes on - I might have to change my view. I now belive that it could be a idea to combine a hobby with some kind of "investment" plan. I now don't belive that investment in watches have the same risk as investment in stocks. And the good thing about investment in watches is that in Denmark you don't have to pay tax of the profit. This is not the case for stocks in Denamrk - there the tax of the profit would be about 40%. There is same advantages in stocks if you have stocks with negative profit, these can be calculated against stocks with positive profit.
Why do I then think watches can be a good investment. Well when I look back on the watches I could have brought to a good price - and now see these watches fetching prices way above by pricerange - I could see watches as a "good" investment, when compared to stocks over the same period.
I now really mean that watches are not impacted in the same way as stocks, realestate. There will ALWAYS be collectores out there that will pay premium for good watches.
You just have to buy the right watches ;-)
Then what would I suggest - well do your homework first. But here are my Hot and Not for watches as investments.
- Rolex 5513 - best if with complete package
- Rolex 1665 - (if with paperwork then it is "money in the bank")
- Panerai 001/002/024/025 models are also good - Series A,B,C (only complete)
- Omega Speedmaser - the original with cal. 321 is a "sure" investment
- Panerai PVD models
- AP "End of the days" model
- Rolex Zenit Daytona ... Maybe, maybe not.. - Only complete package
- Limited editions in general - well I just don't belive in all these limited editions
- Rolex Modern watches - I don't belive these will be collectable ;-)
- AP models - they are very nice but my knowledge of these are limited (except End of the days)
- All models I don't know to much about....
But I will again say that anyone thinking of buying watches as investment - I will say again. Buy what you like - Then if all fails you will still be able to use the watch.
Link to Used and preowned Rolex Watches
Two good danish sites for buying a used watch
I normally use two danish sites when I want to check out the any watch that I might be interested in. The are one of the oldest watch sites vintageure.dk and www.timegeeks.dk They both have links to used watches and www.timegeeks.dk have some very good articles by the "famous" danish WIS Haagen.
I use the chrono24.com site when looking for a new watch and what to check out the actual price. The price there is a good guideline for the price a specific watch.
Buying a expensive watch is for all first times something of a big jump. And that is understandable. Spending a relative large amount of money on a small time piece is for most people not easy to understand. But rest assure - this is only the first watch, buying the second one is much more easy.
I will try to collect some of mine own throughts about buying a watch, what to look out for, where to check for addtional information and hopefully have some answers on some of the questions one might have.
This was some of the information I was looking for when I was starting my way up the watch spiral. You start with one watch and soon your have one more and again your already on the lookout for the next watch.